So thinking over last nights encounter, there are a couple things that stand out that I think that we should consider for future battles.

First is the question of invisibility.

If 4 members of a party of 6 ave invisible, that leaves only two members that are going to be the target of the lower level guys, etc. This is definitely something we need to think about. If we are going to expose people that way, they should be at least somewhat defended, or there should be a purpose for them being the targets.

At very least, if we are going to expose characters that way, it should be for a short time. I'm all for getting in a good attack with a bunch of sneak attack damage right up front, but then we should form up, and fight as a group.

The second is a question of healing. We are in a pretty precarious place right now, as our noble healer is still only able to cast 2 cure serious in a day. That is at most 30 HP at this point. Even before leveling, I have 64 HP, which means that if I get down close to 0, it will take all of Ash's big healing ability to get me close to full HP (and two rounds as well).

So we really should stock up on potions. After thinking about it, what we really need are some big potions. If you are going to waste a round taking a potion, that potion better get you as close to full HP so that you can then spend a few rounds casting, or dealing damage, etc.

In this vane, it might also make sense to get some scrolls of healing, or a wand of healing so that Mike will not have to spend his entire combat propping up the punching clowns...

Lastly, there is the question of Charlot leaving the party. This is inevitable, and once she leaves the party, there will only be 5 of us, and I really think that our party is unbalanced in that configuration. With Two casters, a healer, a rogue, and only a single fighter, we don't have the power we need up front to let the casters do what they need to, etc. Basically, I think that we need another fighter in the party. Ideally, I think that should be a simple player character that one of us can play, so that H doesn't have another NPC to deal with. Even if we have to hire someone, etc. I think that this will be a good move for us, especially if we have a lot of combat waiting for us in the future...

So those are my thoughts. I'd definitely like to hear what you all have to say. Remember, we are saving the world here, that is pretty important.

Alenka's invis timing was, I thought, a bit poor. When faced with melee combatants closing in, I would expect her to engage or fight defensively (or use combat expertise), or perhaps quaff a potion of, say, barkskin or cat's swiftness. All of these options would improve her AC and place her directly as a threat (as well as being less expensive as potions!). When the enemy is composed of some powerful sneak attackers and a bunch of idiot lowbie flankers, I would recommend more denial of positioning- however, you guys DID do a good job with that.

"should be a purpose for them being targets" -> I agree. In this case, however, it's actually a really tough guy being left visible and alone (normally two of you, in fact)- you just aren't as tough as you COULD be.

I would also recommend that Ash pick up some bracers of armor, as he doesn't wear actual armor.

For you- well, you could look into ways to improve your AC. However, many of those strikes were FIRST hits- in other words, very good odds of hitting, and AC can't do it necessarily. You could find some way to get a shield bonus (you, uh, actually could also use a shield- just buy a masterwork one and slap a Tura gem into it!).

However, I do have a pretty cool idea that can address this. I just feel like it shouldn't be a problem that I solve- many players made the choice this game to be strong offense or strong utility, at the cost of more basic defenses such as extra health and AC. For instance, you have a couple levels of rogue, and you don't use heavy armor or a shield. Alenka's ultimate goal is a very defensive class, but for now, she's mostly rogue. These choices have advantages- your damage is quite good, and haste is a very big boost, for instance, and the pixie is strong at throwing out control. So, in other words, I feel like if the choices were made to have very strong offensive characters, lacking health and AC might be an inevitable side of that. I do agree that it's unfortunate that you bear the brunt of that, but it's still tactically correct to kill the Pallian dude dual wielding katanas!

"The second is a question of healing. We are in a pretty precarious place right now, as our noble healer is still only able to cast 2 cure serious in a day."

Well, your normal strategy is to kill stuff fast enough that you don't need heals! However, that's the ideal situation- sometimes you'll eat three arrow hits (one of them a crit) on one round, and you for sure need heals. In any event, your healing capabilities are just about perfect for a group of your level I feel- only groups with multiple full divine casters would have more at this level, or clerics that are specialized towards healing (healing domain, dedicated feats). Ash is instead better at other things, and I don't feel that the extra healing is really required.

On THAT fight, the heals that were on you all actually rolled low as well, don't forget!

"So we really should stock up on potions. After thinking about it, what we really need are some big potions. If you are going to waste a round taking a potion, that potion better get you as close to full HP so that you can then spend a few rounds casting, or dealing damage, etc. "

You are totally correct. This reason, in fact, is why my games have heal potions and restore potions- blowing an action heal just becomes more and more expensive as the game progresses- even back in 2ed and 1ed this was true.

I would also submit that you should consider having defensive tricks as potions as well- even minor ones. You had, I believe, two rounds before you were in combat for real- the first round, you could have taken, say, a potion of blur, or displacement. While you obviously can't afford to gulp a big potion EVERY combat, you are actually pretty close to that point- and when you have a big, multi round fight (versus a series of smaller fights with unorganized opponents, such as are often found in dungeons), such buffs could be invaluable.



Overall, I don't want to come across as saying "play better!". I do understand that it can be frustrating to be the mundane guy who specializes at a task, and to not quite have the support to fulfill that role. But I think the resources at your disposal currently are adequate to live through the fights and punch shit to death with your double blades- and honestly, I think you only died because you took a bunch of damage at the start, an amount that is unusual to take from one single concealed ranged attacker, and were slowly dwindling after that. But you could have fixed it with defensive buff potions, a bit different positioning (you could have kited the assassin a bit possibly), or some of the more expensive potions that you didn't buy. Part of THAT problem, of course, is that there is the idea that if you take a potion, you have to PAY for the potion- in other words, it's a side effect of how you guys do loot.


Ash has a wand of Cure Light Wounds. However, if you were to purchase, say, a wand of Cure Critical Wounds (21,000g), you would have a much more useful in-combat trick. My problem with the wands versus the potions is basically this: if someone is hurt bad, what's the better use of rounds- the badly hurt guy drinks a potion, and the cleric heals him with a spell- versus, the cleric heals him with a wand. Yes, the second case is more efficient, but in the first case, it's over twice as effective normally- and often than burst healing is what you need.

As a metagame aside- the total number of encounters we run through per level is less than what the game is designed for. However, the total challenge of each encounter tends to be turned up. This increases the value of things that would normally not be as efficient- for instance, a potion of blur would have shielded you for 100% of the rounds of combat yesterday, a long session, but were you in a dungeon (or a module), it would be a smaller portion thereof. It also means, because there's less encounters, that you can more easily afford a strategy that starts with "use up something that costs 300g". You almost always gain more than 300g per encounter, and you currently have a pretty decent way to refresh common potions and oils.


Anyway, assuming you noobs can't figure out how to spend your excessive wealth by level on ways to not get hit in combat, we have the following options:

1- I have a cool idea for an item. In lingo, this would put a defensive pet on the board. This would likely address the issue, but I'm concerned it would feel overly charitable. However, I could also charge you cuntwaffles an arm and a leg for it, and that would probably make it fair (you would be getting that *instead* of all the cool permanent and temporary items that would be the traditional way to help you out defensively).

2- You could hire a mercenary, or a guard. Given that you are on decent terms with a few nobles, this shouldn't be a big deal. This option could be expensive, but you would definitely have some more muscle to work with.

3- You could take leadership. The group would have to be ok with it, and actually believe this is a problem that needs to be solved that way. This wouldn't cost you any gold, just a feat (though, you have to hit 7th level first). You would have to roleplay this character. I personally think that with 5 players, we shouldn't need to invoke Leadership (I prefer it for 3 or less PCs).

4- Other!

H's advice and counsel is good, Jon. Really, you were the subject of some bad rolls. Sure, our invisible party members didn't help (especially when it's making the wizard a 50% target). But we're starting to get more powerful, and I'm starting to get some spells that will help out the party as buffs. I have Haste now, and I can also Enlarge you (something I've only cast once up until now). I'll continue to get buffs, as will Ash. H's idea for some potions of Barksin is a good one. I'll also eventually get Stoneskin, which will help you a lot. It's a little expensive to cast, though.

The idea for a mercenary isn't a bad one, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary. As mentioned, Alenka will morph into a front line fighter, albeit a finesse version as opposed to a tank. I think we do need to resolve to help YOU be a better tank, and there are ways to accomplish that. First and foremost, we need to give you that +2 protection ring we just found. It's a start. You could get a shield, as H mentioned, or maybe Ash could take a Shield Other spell to provide you with before a battle. I can't cast my Shield spell on you (it's only able to be cast on me).

We DID just get a nice cache of potions after that battle. After we divvy up loot and gold, we should make some decisions on potions to buy, both healing and otherwise.

Don't fret - this was just a case of some bad luck. It will get better. It's happened to just about all of us that have been front line fighters.

I will just start going fighter. I am not good at playing a defensive character.

It was a bit surprising that you died, IMO. I was prepared to pull you out of there the It was a bit surprising that you died, IMO. I was prepared to pull you out of there the same way that I got Alenka out, but you got out on your own before I went. I'm not sure what happened there because I wasn't paying much attention, but if I understand things correctly the biggest tactical error was when you killed a low level NPC instead of taking a 5ft step away and chugging a potion. Perhaps you were out of potions.

As for potions... I've been saying everyone should be carrying more potions for about 5 years now. Counting on the priest sucks for the priest all the time, and it sucks for the non-priest in the event the priest can't get there. The priest can have some pretty good offensive spells, but it's useless if he spends all his time healing people who didn't carry potions. I have enough potions to heal myself to full 2 or 3 times (yes, I know that's not a whole hell of a lot). Now, the front line will take more potions, and if we want to come up with a fair way of making potions a group purchase, that's fine by me (up until you burn a Heal potion because you were 30 down).

Essentially, you want your fighters to be the targets even if it means you may die. The wizard has a good con, but his hit die is a d4. If the priest dies, well, then I'll fly off and find another adventuring party that is rerolling. So yes, it sucks. Try to remember the awesomeness of Kaliq. I swear there was a battle where he was dropped, healed, dropped, healed, dropped, and healed all in 3 rounds. It happened because he was very effective and whatever the hell was fighting him really wanted him dead.

One key difference is that it is easier to die in this campaign than mine (I was overly generous, and we're both very generous compared to stock rules). Being at 1 hp is about as bad as it gets. If you may recall, when Jacob left the campaign way back, someone had him running around a battle with 1 hp after an initial attack. I had no idea of that until I hit you with a fireball, and he was dead. Sure, he was a stupid bard anyway (side note: In my next campaign, I believe I have decided that bard is profession. At least by 3.5 rules, it makes no sense for a bard to be a combat class. We'll just throw him right out.).

At higher levels, the priest might be able to pull off a Revivify, and we may also have a Restore potion somewhere. Until then... well, we just need to make sure not to get hit when we're that low. If all you do during a battle is chug expensive potions while a high level fighter bashes you, that's still very useful.


If you want to get clever, we can use a Memory Loss arrow to get ourselves a fighter. It will require some pretty serious bluff checks from me to get it last, and he will be very cross with us if he ever gets a Heal.


Also, I am assume that Dennis was healed. He was only at -2. He is trained to detect and locate the pheromones I release when I drop below 0 hp, much like when a dying bee summons his swarm.

It's not tough. You have Combat Expertise already (I think), and you can take a few more feats to help you not die very much. I know that in the past you've sometimes forgotten to use Power Attack when attacking something with the AC of a barn. It will behoove you to not forget to use Combat Expertise as a rogue.

Being a "defensive character" isn't much different than a tank-type fighter. It just means that you don't stand there and absorb damage like the tank-type fighter. Your goal is to get swung at and missed more. You take Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Dodge, Mobility, etc. You Hide and Move Silent more. You use Invisibility if your Hide sucks (which I don't think it does). You (eventually) have Improved Evasion to help with wizards trying to turn you into a pile of goo. We find a way to buff your Will save so that you all of a sudden don't start swinging at your friends.

Marchosias was a "defensive character" for the first half of Mark's campaign. He used his bow to start a battle, and tried to flank as much as he could once the battle was joined to maximize his damage. He DIDN'T charge with the fighter-types at the start of a battle. The difference here is that we have one tank, while in that campaign, we essentially had two. But as I mentioned to Jon, we can buff ourselves before battle (with spells or potions) to minimize our hurt during battle.

Well, the bigger problem is we have no tanks. Both Keichi and Alenka have taken at least one level of rogue.

The ideal party would be to have me replaced with a barbarian. The question is whether you think overall the party would be better off with a barbarian or a pixie (please keep in mind even a barbarian can roll 1, 2, and 3 on his attack rolls).

There is something to be said for the comments about hiring an NPC or something. Or the DM Schmuck could do the decent thing and acknowledge where the party is lacking and fill that hole (despite the fact he's never filled a hole in his life).

Well, if H allows, Alenka could go about her way now that we are in town, and I can generate a barbarian. It isn't that I don't like her. In fact, I find sneaking around and gathering info to be a blast since its something I have never really played before. I also recognize what our party needs, which is a true tank type of character, and that is equally fine for me.

No. Keep the character you like, particularly since trying something new is a good idea.

We'll figure it out.

Besides, I think on the rolls of the Knights of Copper. Maybe we can get one of my brothers to help out.


We may also simply find an adventurer who lost his party. A nice CG or NG fighter who will work for an appropriate share of treasure would be a great asset.

Now, just to be clear, my overall point is that we really need to think about our group strategy when we are in combat. This is because we are in a really precarious position at the moment.

I'm also not worried at all that I died again, and I am not at all worried about my roll as a front line fighter. I'm perfectly fine with that.

I also understand that there were some bad rolls. For those keeping track, I was able to get up to a whopping 29 HP after a Cure Serious potion, and two Cure Serious from our kindly priest.

Why did I attack the low level guy? Because our Wizard was flanked, and in combat with two characters, which is not a great place for him.

I was also hoping that I would be able to get in a couple of hits and then take a 5-foot step and take my last Cure Serious potion.... But as we know now, that didn't turn out so well.

Over all, the point is that if we don't want H to kill us, we need to start being a bit smarter in combat.

Jay, the character you have is perfectly fine, and if you like playing her, by all means do. I really do think that if we would just add one more front like character, a lot of these issues will go away. And more than anything, after doing the math from my current predicament, I came to the conclusion that we all may not have really thought through how little we can rely on Ash's priestly abilities.

And remember, I was the resident healer in the last campaign. I do remember what it is like running around keeping everyone up. Let's just say that I am biblically familiar with a certain Monks backside... I don't think I actually attacked anyone for the last year of that campaign...

Now if we want to press on as we are, which does seem to be what H prefers, I think that it is fine, but we really have to employ a little more stragegery, and think about what certain actions (like going invisible) might do to the rest of the group.

In closing, I do hope that you resurrect me, and that I don't lose any levels. I also hope that I don't die any more, but I know it will happen at least a couple more times.

I promise that if I am born again, I will get a lot more potions (blur sounds very relevant to my interests), and ironically, I really want the lesser ring of invisibility...

I am wondering who you think should not have gone invisible Jon? I went invisible because I knew there was an archer, I have a certain importance and was shaken which means I had a minus 2 to just about everything. Being out in front means you are out in front, even if Alenka hadn't gone invisible you probably would have received those three arrows as you are the meanest looking guy holding two very sharp weapons.

I also think us sitting around and having a powwow about what we are going to do as enemies bear down on us is really not realistic. We can maybe talk about certain duties in battle or some general ideas on what we should each do while we are not fighting. However when it comes to the battle I would rather stick to more realism and not sit around and discuss battle plans when we are 50 feet apart each fighting something.

If anyone needs to be moved, let me know. At the far end of the table with a stack of books in the way, I rarely know who is flanking whom and whatnot. Being an invisible, flying archer and caster, exact positioning is usually not important. But, you know, shout for evac if you need it. We can have a code word for it. Maybe "Lookuphere" or "An apple a day." Keeping a cohort alive is more important than wasting an expensive arrow.

I'll go right ahead and tell you this- the lesser ring of invisibility requires you to hold pretty still, and takes two rounds to activate (round 1 you spend a standard action and gain 20% concealment- round 2 you don't spend any kind of action, and gain invisibility). It's more meant for ambushing or guarding, which is how it was being used. I thought coming up with a cool unique item would maybe let the assassin actually do his job, but instead Zem was all AW HELL NAW BOYEEE LEMME JUST GET SUM SEEE INVIS UP INNAT and thus fate occurred.
Like the spell invisibility, it breaks on attack. It also breaks if you move more than 5 feet away from where you cast it. That's why it is lesser!



This I agree with. I would argue that this group is more powerful than the one in Zem's game just based on character optimization- but only a dash.

The reason I brought up the shield thing is simple- it's not something that Keichi is training for, or Alenka, but it is something you guys know how to use, already. You can drop shields as a free action, and draw your second weapon while you are moving (as a free action). In the case of Alenka, who is using a one-handed weapon, she should absolutely be using a shield until she has her first level of Duelist! Remember that the Tura gems give you a lot of mobility with your weapons and shit- you can just BAM have a +2 shield or whatever, and then a moment later, not. It does seem a bit odd to start every battle with a shield, then immediately drop it and bust your sword out, of course, but it's just a low-hanging fruit that could be plucked.



100% agree. Alenka doesn't need to go away.




At this stage of the game, I believe your group (barely) has the money for True Resurrection (if you pool). Of course, if you were willing to help out the greater cause of Zemnia, I'm sure that *something* could be arranged...


It's entirely possible that you could get Caleb back, or a mercenary, or any of the adventurers that are in Emerald. Obviously, he, she, or it would split treasure and XP (the same way Caleb, Orchid, and Charlotte have done). Additionally, I did a bit of brainstorming on my item idea, and it'll be available, but the price will be somewhat dear- in other words, it's going to be a choice.

Also- I'm actually a bit distressed that you guys are using the word "tank". I mean, in this case, one more hit point on Keichi and he wouldn't have died! (Granted, the attack that took him down could have been more as well). It's not like anyone has the job of "get punched", after all. That just ends up being part of the deal when you yourself are punching!




Defensively, this means that they are shy like 2-3 hit points though. I don't think the lil bit of rogue is what is hurting them exactly.



I gave lots of options in my post! However, this party has benefits over a two fighter party. If we are talking NPC, I think your best bet would be to grab a nice cleric of Jaenca! I just think this is largely a tactical problem, and I've proposed tactical solutions.

If I do bring in an NPC, I expect one of you turkeyfuckers to run him in combat for me!

"Clank clank ima tank!"

Well, sure, but it also hurts base attack bonus and, more to the point, their ability point distribution was for Han Solo, not Chewbacca. Also, they aren't wrapping themselves in big armor.

I'm not suggesting they change what they're doing, only pointing out where we lack.


We're not 7th level and we spent all our money on toys... and bringing back a dead guy. But yes, we can control a guy with a stick or something.

I think that as long as we know what our weaknesses are, and we all keep them in mind in combat, we will last much longer.

I wonder if I can get some king of heal contingency put on me in case I get close to 0 hp again.

I think resurrection is cheaper.

One more thing:

The "best" way to get a kill on the players is to have the NPCs reorder themselves with delay and ready. I can recall at LEAST one of the kills in Zem's game was exactly that, and I've seen very dangerous plays happen with delay and ready in PFS play. Simply put, delay and ready allow for two (or more) moves to go off at the same time. This time, the muck-around was: one guy moved and readied an action to attack contigent on the other guy moving into range. The other guy went not too far after, and both attacked.

Now, how can you avoid this? It's not easy. The game is turn based, and when you move yourself around you run the risk of forgetting that things can do the temporal dance, just like you can. However, unlike a lot of stuff, this is not ENTIRELY obvious looking at the board. For instance, pretend that Ash had gone in between these two (he did not). Would he have seen what was happening and reacted? There's exactly one flank spot in that case. Dennis could have run there (if he had gone in between, which he also did not).


Another thing is that I think the "easiest" battles tactically are against three opponents. I don't mean that three opponents can't challenge a group, or is a poor party size, but with three opponents everyone is still able to judge, with a glance, what's going on with a high degree of accuracy. When those three guys each get there turn, they all make waves, and the players (normally) have time to react. Sometimes reacting is better than acting. Now, with two guys it's similar, but each one is going to have a more powerful attack cycle or thing that they can do. With just ONE guy, he has a real chance of dropping someone from full each round (assuming all these encounters are of equivalent CR). With four or more guys the party loses their "turn advantage" and there chance of the actions of minor actors adding up in unexpected ways goes up. Basically for more or less than three enemies on the board, the variability rises, and thus, the control that smart players have over the board goes down a bit, even if the overall difficulty is similar.




An aside:

As DM, I have my most tactically interesting games at between 2-8 enemy combatants. At one, every round matters far too much. Some solo enemies will simply outright kill a PC each round and die on like the third round, others will be very threatening and have passive defenses that ignore two determined attackers each round- all of these things are to me, pretty uninteresting. I still DO them, because they are fun for the players, of course, as the players have to solve the puzzle fast, but I've had a couple TPKs back in the day where the party did everything right, but my dice just outdid them- and with a single powerful enemy, that can just happen. At more than 8 enemy combatants, the enemies often have some trivially weak members whose correct tactical choice is often to ignore, but sometimes they will far outperform their pay grade- but MUCH more often, they just get AoEed down in a blaze of lol. Again, these are still fun to play for the players, and they definitely reward certain spells and abilities that SHOULD logically be rewarded from time to time.

I may have delayed and readied a few times, but you do make much more use of that. Because you're a jerk.

Wait, hang on. The ring of lesser invisibility only makes you invisible if you're stationary... yet Fuckwit McGee stayed invisible after he started moving. Should I assume he had some auxiliary invisibility power, or DM error?

He's an assassin, and cast invisibility (same as before). Which lets you move, but, you know, has a fixed duration.


Clearly, he needed a Hill Giant again. Pity you killed the last one.

Or a cave troll.

Your next enemy will poop Lava Conch.

Have you ever had conch fritters? I love those things. Conch chowder is pretty good too, but it made me poop quite a lot and with much haste.

I assume being from Miami you have had both, but sometimes you surprise me.

I actually don't recall, so maybe?


I am preparing an NPC. I also have the item. I'll see which one to go with, if either.