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 Post subject: We did the right thing with the reflex save
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 11:19 am 
Master of the West Wind
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:10 am
Posts: 1547
Location: BRB giving magic item to lich 1sec
A sleeping person is unconscious. An unconscious person is helpless.

A helpless person has a dex of 0, and the equivalent modifier (-5).
An unconscious person is also considered willing for the purpose of "willing" spells. This is a small subset of spells though.

Lets assume someone has a Reflex save of 8 (from a base +3 and a Dex of 20, yielding +5, for the +8 total), a Will save of +4, and a Fort save of +4.

Case A:
If they are up and running around normally:

Fireball allows a reflex save of +8. The character may voluntarily give up the reflex save.
Slow allows a fort save of +4. The character may voluntarily give up the fort save.
Hold person allows a will save of +4. The character may voluntarily give up the will save.
Haste has the (harmless) tag. The character may voluntarily choose to make a fort save at +4, but ordinarily doesn't get one.
Teleport affects willing creatures. The character may choose to not be willing, in which case, they aren't affected.

Case B:
If the person is helpless, but conscious:

Fireball allows a reflex save of -2. The character may voluntarily give up the reflex save. The spell is at -2 because of the base +3 and the +5 from 20 Dex being replaced with -5 of 0 Dex.
Slow allows a fort save of +4. The character may voluntarily give up the fort save.
Hold person allows a will save of +4. The character may voluntarily give up the will save.
Haste has the (harmless) tag. The character may voluntarily choose to make a fort save at +4, but ordinarily doesn't get one.
Teleport affects willing creatures. The character may choose to not be willing, in which case, they aren't affected.

Case C:
If the person is unconscious, they are also helpless.

Fireball allows a reflex save of -2. The character must attempt the reflex save. The spell is at -2 because of the base +3 and the +5 from 20 Dex being replaced with -5 of 0 Dex.
Slow allows a fort save of +4. The character must attempt the fort save.
Hold person allows a will save of +4. The character must attempt the will save.
Haste has the (harmless) tag. The character may not choose to make a fort save.
Teleport affects willing creatures. The character is considered willing, because they are unconscious.


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 Post subject: Re: We did the right thing with the reflex save
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 11:20 am 
Master of the West Wind
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:10 am
Posts: 1547
Location: BRB giving magic item to lich 1sec
I believe these rules are unchanged since 3.X as well- I think we just benefited from looking them up.


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