3.X has a "landmark" spell, Feeblemind. Feeblemind, if you fail the save, reduces Int and Cha to 1, making you essentially into an animal, intelligence wise. You can still help your friends, and you can't cast stuff.

Now, the first thing that is interesting is that you are fully effective with a weapon, such as a sword, with an Int of 1. While I'll agree that melee attackers probably don't need "smart" as their prime ability, an Int of 1 is on par with a housecat. It just seems that the intelligence would matter SOME, that's all.

The second, and most important, part of this spell is the conditional -4. Because this spell is meant to hose casters specifically, they get a -4 to it. A cleric doesn't have this penalty: only an arcanist does. Because these classes have good will saves (2+1/2 level), that's probably part of why it's there- but it is "landmark" because it establishes a pretty decent idea here.


Some spells absolutely screw you. Others it's ok to be affected by. Many you have no choice. Mostly, this means that the negative effect spells are at low level, and the major effect ones at high level. This also means that combat at high level tends to be a lot of save-or-lose packets being sent around, or casters avoiding these completely in exchange for the no-save effects. For instance, you might put a wall of force up in front of half of your foes, ensuring their delay or elimination from the fight, instead of attempting to hit them all with slow, or hit a single one with finger of death. The wall effect is more or less guaranteed to be effective, the slow may not bother them enough, and the finger of death may do nothing except waste your time.

I've had a few modal effects in my current game. For instance, assume the caster is, say, 12th level. An easy DC at this level would be 10 + 12/2 + 3 = 19. A tough one might be 10 + 12/2 + 6 + 3 = 25.

The effect in question then, might be:

DC 27 or trivial effect (-1 to hits, 10% miss chance, take a small amount of damage, say 5-15)
DC 22 or moderate effect (-3 penalty to one or more things, dazed for one round, take 10-20 damage)
DC 17 or harsher effect (stunned for 1d2+1 rounds, take a large amount of damage)

These things I've used a couple times. Since my PCs normally go through some effort and make sacrifices to have good saves, it "plays the game"- meaning that the ones who have done this can feel good, because they are usually mitigating something. At the same time, even the harshest save isn't as bad as the save-or-die effects at this level on a fail. The downside is that these are a bit more complex. I think it's worth it given how much time is spent doing these anyway.

Another thing is simply to have a spell that is more reliable than others of its level. For instance, lets assume you have a spell that assigns a -4 to hit. That's a pretty limited spell, but also reasonably powerful. Pretend it's well negates. What level would you see this at?

I would think, around 2nd for a wizard. Bestow curse is 4th, and not for power reasons (clerics have it at 3rd), and the save is the same, and the effect is not as great (bestow is modal). More relevantly, the 2nd level spells include blindness / deafness, which is a fort save, but certainly blinding someone is almost always better than a -4- the -4 is a bit safer perhaps, as some things don't use sight, but there it is.

Ok, so 2nd level. NOW- what if it was a -4 with NO save? We have less templates for this. We know that Irresistible Dance offers far greater power than this for a touch attack at 8th level, so 8th level puts a max on it, even if our spell is medium range. Seventh still seems very generous, and Acid Fog at 6th seems like it should be considered, as well as Solid Fog at 4th. I'm not even sure what level is correct, but my gut says this would be fair for a 5th level spell, and possibly also could work at 4th?

Could there be a 3rd level spell that offers a save... but with a -4 penalty (aka, the DC goes up by 4)? I think it would be great if this was the case. Powerful effects could be a shot in the dark as they are now, mundane effects could ignore saves, but there's a lot of room to play in the middle with saving throws with penalties to them.

I wrote out a rambling response and deleted it. I'm going to try to be concise...

From my perspective, there are two possible things here. One is the idea that you might say "This spell is too strong for 6th level, but too weak for 7th level... so what if we make it 7th level but make the DC 2 or 4 higher?" Or maybe you want to take something that has Pass = Negates, Fail = Very Bad, and then you create a similar power of spell and say Pass = Minor Bad Effect, Fail = Very Bad, but the DC is 2 or 4 lower.

The other possibility is that, like Feeblemind, special targets get special treatment. Feeblemind is directed at arcane casters, and presumably it uses their ability to cast against them somehow when it comes to resisting the spell. So similarly perhaps I could make a spell that weakens breath weapons and dragons get a penalty to it. If I cast on Bad Breath Troll, the DC is determined normally.

For what it's worth, I'm fine with either option, but I just want to make sure I understand where you're going with it.


Also, as a DM, I felt bad casting Finger of Death. It's a good spell... sort of. But the reality is that it seems wrong that such a huge power swing should depend on a single die roll. Either I waste the turn of presumably the major enemy in a combat, or I kill the biggest player threat on the table.

Agree totally on finger of death. I do use the save-or-die spells, but they are rough to balance. What happens MOST of the time with them is that the save is successful- or, out of the saveS, *most* are successful.

What CAN happen is that a TPK occurs for no reason except fickle dice. While that's always a possibility, it really puts that chance up there.

The reason I feel bad doing it is because it's usually not in the best interest of the NPC enemy to cast that spell. If the fight opens with a volley of save-or-die, or a Wail of the Banshee, and it actually WORKS, then the PCs are wormfood- best case, they need to retreat and are down tons of gold. But what NORMALLY happens is that it is all resisted, or there's a death ward (for wail), and the NPCs spent a round "not doing anything". Of course, they DID something, but it doesn't feel that way to the PCs. Basically, the PCs either feel cheesed to death, or they feel like they have a smooth ride, and things with greater possibilities just make more sense.



But to your question- the first thing is, in my experience, rarely an issue. A spell that legitimately lies between spell levels can normally have one or more perk added to it. Perks can include increasing the range or effect slightly, or the duration, or in some cases even upping the target. If you wanted haste to be fourth level and wanted to buff it to get there, you could increase the bonus granted to saves and AC, for instance.

But- I *have* done this. For instance, I have stated that, in my games, lightning bolt has a +2 to the DC and +2 to overcome spell resistance. It's just a harder spell to save against. For whatever reason, fireball's area seems about twice as good as lightning bolt's area in my games. I honestly suspect that the creators of the game always targetted fireball at the ground, and as such were playing with a 2D template on a grid, instead of a sphere that goes where you fucking want it to be. Meanwhile, I offer the same +2 to the DC (but not versus spell resistance) if you can nail someone with a ranged touch attack with the fireball. Normally that doesn't come up, because including another target is almost always more important.


What I made this thread for was more the second half of your first case. As an example:

Fireball- 1d6 -> 10d6, Level 3. Reflex save for half.

This spell is straightforward. It's second order interactions are generally:
-> It's fire and can burn things, melt things, and begin normal fires.
-> It's fire, and as such reacts with energy immunities / resistances / vulnerabilities (but mostly the first two)
-> It's a reflex save, so monks and rogues just lollerskate in circles and ignore it

We'll use a 10th level caster with a prime attribute modifer of 6.

The save DC is 19.


Now, lets change a couple things:

Pyroball: This fireball explodes in two rapid bursts, the first one faster but not as hot as a fireball, and a bit lighter of a red- the second one a deep blue, and much more potent, but easier to dodge.

Make a reflex saving throw. Read down until you find a line that describes your save, and stop there.

-> If you pass DC 23, you take no damage.
-> If you pass DC 17, you take half damage from the fire.
-> If you pass DC 13, you take full damage from the fire.
-> If you failed all these saves, take 1.5x damage from the fire.

If I were to make this spell (and I almost did), I would definitely have the initial red blast be bigger (say, 35 foot radius), and the blue blast be smaller (say, 15 foot radius), and if you are only in the red, then those last two lines can't apply to you- or something.

Now, you probably don't need this for fireball. And it's not obvious how it interacts with evasion (by rules it wouldn't, because it would no longer be reflex half- but you would still WANT it to). But that's kind of what I was going for- a set of effects that rewards you for scoring higher with your die roll, while still hitting you with something MOST of the time.

Again, evocation probably doesn't need this complexity (well, not mostly), but if you have a rotting glare move, that's supposed to rot people you are looking at to death, then having the whole party roll saves at a mediocre DC or be, say, paralyzed, is going to be a less interesting encounter than if you need to roll under a 17 to get paralyzed, but you are more likely to be slowed, and are VERY likely to be sickened.

I think it makes sense and it's balanced, but the problem with that is if you drop it in the middle of the players it will take half an hour to resolve.

R:What's the save?
DM:Pass 23, take no damage, 17 take half, and 13 take full damage. Fail and take 1.5x. Base damage is 38.
A: Damn, missed by one.
DM: Which one?
A: What? You said 17. I got a 16.
DM: Ok, I thought you might have gotten a 22.
A: You said 17.
DM: Nevermind.
Al: I pass!
DM: What'd you get?
Al: I passed, does it matter?
DM: You passed a 23?
Al: I thought it was 17.
M: Ash, did you remember the Bless?
A: Oh, does that do saves?
M: I think so. Or is that Prayer? No, I think they both do saves.
A: Then I passed! No damage, right?
DM: No, you still have half damage.
A: You said if you pass you take no damage.
DM: You have to pass the higher save to get no damage.
A: 38?! Who the hell can pass a 38?
DM: Wait... no... wait... hang on. Did I say 38? I said 38, but....
M: That's the damage.
DM: Oh yeah. The higher save was 23.
Al: So now suddenly I don't pass?
DM: What did you get?
Al: 21.
DM: Then you take half damage.
Al: Wait! I have Bless! And Haste!
M: Haste doesn't affect your reflex save.
Al: I thought it did.
M: No, it doesn't.
Al: Then I got a 22. But I have evasion and I passed the save.
DM: For evasion, yes, since you take half you take none.
R: I'm not in this, am I?
DM: You're in the bigger radius blast, probably not the little one.
R: Really? I said I'm flying at 20 feet.
DM: The radius is 35 feet. Do the math.
R: If I'm in the larger blast... let me find my calculator.
K: What did I miss while I was making tea?
DM: Make a reflex saving throw.
K: What's the DC?
DM: Pass 23, take no damage, 17 take half, and 13 take full damage. Fail and take 1.5x. Base damage is 38.
K: I fail.
DM: What'd you get?
K: 12.
M: Did you remember the Bless?
K: What does that do?
M: Plus 1 to saves.
K: Oh, then I pass. Evasion, no damage.
DM: Well, you still failed, just not as badly as you could have.
K: But... I passed.
DM: You take full damage.
R: I'm on the square that is half of the smaller burst!
DM: Da fuq?
R: The... a squared b squared thing.
DM: That was like half an hour ago.
R: I hate math. So does your mom, tinydick.
DM: There's a 50% chance you are affected by the smaller burst.
R: Fine, evens and I'm clear.... GODDAMNED FUCKING DICE GODS!!!!!
DM: ha-ha
R: Fuck your mother, I passed DC 23!
DM: How about Vyztria?
R: I hate you.
DM: I know.
R: Vyztria... passes 13, and she has evasion.... but she was on the side away from the blast, so she only has the bigger blast. So she takes half damage... does the evasion count?
DM: No, she took full damage from half the blast, so evasion doesn't apply.
R: Fine. What's the base damage, dick?
DM:....
Al:....
A:....
K:....
M:.... it was 30-something. 33?
DM: I think it was higher than that.
...
...

I confess to having said every single one of those things should this come to pass.

Too. Much.

That was AWESOME.

Only because I think it came verbatim from one of our previous sessions.

Well, obviously I ask for your number then consult my chart, and any spell would work similar to that. I mean, that's what I've done with the similar things so far.

Plus it's unfair to dig on evasion, because we WOULD know how evasion works if I made one of those. We just don't right now.

Still 10/10 rant.

Also, it is Viztria.