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 Post subject: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:49 pm 
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Standing adjacent to a horse can provide a +2 to AC from cover from a direction where the attack must pass through the horse. You must be aware of the attack to take cover behind the horse. If the attack misses you but is high enough to hit the horse, it hits the horse. The AC bonus is +2 and not +4 because horses don't provide much coverage to legs. If you can manage to become completely horizontal while levitating behind the horse, the cover bonus is +4. If you are prone on the ground next to the horse, no cover bonus will be applied (though +4 from ranged weapon while prone still applies, of course).

This assumes the horse is horse-sized and horse-intelligent. We'll handle other soft cover separately.


Ride check penalties:
Ills suited mount: -5
Without a saddle: -5

Saddling, mounting, riding, and dismounting in most cases does not require a ride check.

Tasks that require no actions
Code:
Guide with knees       5
Stay in saddle         5
Enter water           10
Cover                 15
Leap                  15
Soft fall             15



Tasks that require move action
Code:
Spur mount                            15
Control nonwar mount in battle        20


Enter Water
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Guide with Knees
Make Ride check at start of turn. If you succeed, you can use both hands. If you fail, you can only use one hand as the other is occupied with controlling the mount.

Leap
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Soft Fall
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Stay in Saddle
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Swim while Mounted
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Seduce Mount
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Fight as War Mound Attacks
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Spur Mount
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Control Nonwar Mount in Battle
Unchanged from Rules Compendium. Will add later.

Special fun actions:
Cover (while mounted)
As an immediate action you may choose an adjacent square and attempt to drop onto that side of the horse. Made a DC 20 Ride check. Success means you get +4 cover bonus through the mount's spaces. If you fail the ride check by 5 or more, make a DC 15 Dex check or fall of the horse (you are prone on the ground).

You may return to your saddle on your turn. Make a DC 15 Ride check. If you succeed, it is a free action. If you fail, it requires a Move action.

If the horse is galloping/running, take a -4 to the Ride check

Fast Mount or Dismount
You can attempt to quickly mount or dismount from a mount up to one size category larger than yourself, provided you have a move action available. If you fail, the action takes the move action If you fail by 5 or more, make a DC 15 Dex check or fall prone.

If the horse is galloping/running, take a -4 to the Ride Check.

-------

Combat While Mounted

Later



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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:12 am 
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Which action is the one where you attack from horseback?

What is "fight as a war mount attacks"? Does the fact that it is a swift action change how nonwar mounts?


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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:41 am 
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Ok, I guess that should be free. This is still in progress. The cover while riding, however, should probably not be free.

Edit: You know... fuck. If you look at those two options, one is clearly a "this round a control a horse," but the other appears to be a single action. It's weird. I feel like we're missing something about this cover while riding a horse. Or at least I am. The cover while next to a horse is separate, of course, but this cover on horse just seems really fucking weird.

I mean, we're basically talking about this, right? Not to this degree, but you'd be surprised how hard it is to find the right image. I thought Indiana Jones did it, but I can't find that either. Anyway, how the fuck could this ever be a free action? Do you know what would happen if I tried that? I'd fall off the fucking horse.
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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:46 am 
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I can't find the term for it. I fucking know it's a thing, because it was a plains Indian thing once they had horsey-tech. They would literally drop 90 degrees to one side and ride the horse that way briefly.


In any event, the modelling of it in the book is incomplete, notably because it doesn't actually mention how you STOP riding the horse like that. As written, there seems to be no disadvantage to doing this. Also, the folks who would do this were also riding bareback, which has a lot of disadvantages in melee.

By the book:
> You can do it instantly.
> No apparent limit on how often you can do it.
> Recovery time appears instant and free
> No penalty for failure
> One check per attempt
> Can't attack or cast spells while doing it.

This isn't as ludicrous as it sounds, but it is close. The worst part is the clause about not being able to attack or cast spells doesn't seem to matter because you pop up and down instantly or something.


Here would be my take on it:

> Drop to side of horse as an immediate action- DC 15
Fail by more than 5 and you fall and take 1d6 damage. Succeed and you are riding alongside your horse.
> Return to a normal riding position- DC 15. You must have at least a move action to attempt this, and it must be your turn.
Failure: This takes a move action. Success: This is a free action.
> Begin your turn riding alongside your horse: If you begin your round riding alongside your horse, make a DC 10 ride check to stay mounted.

Riding alongside your horse:
Choose an edge of your horse's square, or two adjacent edges of your horse's hex. You have cover (+4 AC) against attacks that pass through your horse to reach the selected edge. While riding alongside your horse you cannot attack or cast spells.


This seems to capture the intent? Maybe? But has rules ramifications for the horseportation trickery.


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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:56 pm 
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That sounds very reasonable. I also like the ramifications of each, and they make sense. If I try to lean off the side and screw up, I will probably fall. If I try to pull myself back up, I easily see myself saying "Whew, hang on, dammit, I can do this. Alright. Just give me a fucking second."

I need to get the difference between free, swift, and immediate actions tattooed somewhere.

I think we might consider penalties for moving. Not so much having a horse take a move action, but trying to do this while riding a galloping (running) horse sounds quite a bit harder. It seems obvious to me, but I can see whiney bastards going apeshit if I don't declare that ahead of time.



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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:36 am 
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Well, the values in the book assume you are moving, and so did I. You would definitely never write down a combat action with the implied meaning of "but this is harder if you are moving", because you are almost always moving. If you think DC 15 is too easy (I do not) then make it higher. Remember that the ride check of a person lightly trained would on average be +0 to +4, so if your intuition says that something should work about half the time for someone conversant in that skill (aka, a very bad success rate and highly risky in combat), DC 15 is the right place to go. If something could only be achieved with great luck and stupendous training (aka, nothing that ever happened historically, but something that might be in a legend that COULD be true, once), then it might only have a 25% chance of success if someone is highly dextrous and trained- a DC 30 would be appropriate there. A DC 20 is something that could be achieved pretty rarely and might be selected by a normal person when the alternative is death, etc. Certainly anything that happened historically with trained soldiers should become a sure thing to a fully trained E6 character.

In any event, if you want to differentiate moving and stationary, moving would be the default and you'd give a bonus for stationary (bonus to roll or lower DC). Galloping (run action) would be a different story, and I would suggest -4 as that seems to be the sort of penalty such a state implies to other values.



The action matrix is fucked up because there's two kinds of free actions. By the book, a free action can be done whenever, whether it is your turn or not, such as speaking, and the DM can put limits as to how much can be done in a round (you could shout instructions but not recite a sonnet). But later documents usually mean free action to mean "unlimited, but only on your turn".

The table is here but:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

Basically our version is:

Not an action- Events that take place as PART of another action.

Free action (whenever)- actions such as speaking, thought, certain mental or vocal abilities, dropping an item or weapon, and some state based action such as reacting to forces like gravity.

Immediate Action- A very fast action that can be used at any time. You can only use one swift or immediate action per round. We've always played that you get back this "temporal token" at the beginning of your round.

Swift Action- A very fast action that can be taken during your turn. You can only use one swift or immediate action per round, so if you use a swift action, you can't use another, or an immediate action until the beginning of your next turn.

Free Action (your turn)- You can only do these on your turn, but you have an unlimited amount of them, subject to DM discretion.

Five Foot Step- If able to move and you have a movement speed of five or more, you can, during your turn, take a five foot step if you take a full round action or a standard and a move equivalent action.

Move Equivalent Action- Takes the same opportunity cost as a move action, but does not move you.

Move Action- Takes a meaningful amount of your time to use some manner of physical locomotion. You cannot take a five foot step in a round where you use a move action unless that move action is some kind of bonus.

Standard Action- A normal amount of time that represents the bulk of a round.

Full Round Action (this round)- Consumes your full round. You can still take a five foot step before, during, or after. Your effect takes effect immediately. Example: Full attack.

Full Round Action (next round)- Consumes your full round, and you continue doing the action until the beginning of your next turn. If stopped or interrupted, your action is partially completed, incomplete, or cancelled, which may result in its negation (such as spells).




Two of these are not at all friendly (the two free actions and the double meaning of full round action). Additionally, the game designers made some odd choices- by the book, a quickened spell is a free action that you can do once per round, meaning you can take the effect whenever you want, and it doesn't interfere with any other actions. Later the swift action was introduced, and that stayed the same, but then at some point the swift action nomenclature was used to describe a quickened spell. We've played them as immediate actions since quick and immediate were launched.


The shittiest part is that the quick and immediate actions were launched with the psionics handbook, where they saw very light usage, but this meant that many never saw the source. They got rolled into some rules errata, but the main rulebook still doesn't talk about them (the SRD does, but that's literally edited in). They also got really heavy usage in later rules, and in 4ed the actions are "minor, move, standard". The heaviest usage is in 9swords, where a ton of martial techniques are swift actions and a few immediate, and some of the later books offer decent swift and immediate spells, many of which last only a single round or have a greatly reduced effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:47 pm 
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cflacon wrote:
Galloping (run action) would be a different story, and I would suggest -4 as that seems to be the sort of penalty such a state implies to other values.

Yeah, that's all I meant.
Zem wrote:
I think we might consider penalties for moving. Not so much having a horse take a move action, but trying to do this while riding a galloping (running) horse sounds quite a bit harder.


A normal move, a double horse move, and stationary can all be the same. I'm just saying that a full gallop while tucked along the side of a horse seems, you know, hard.



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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:36 am 
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What are the rules on how horses take potions? Oats of Cure Light Wounds?

How many ranks of Handle Animal before a horse can beat Trapfinder Beniggle-Wiggle at a game of chess? Do you have to spot him extra knights?


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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:47 am 
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Horses and potions? I fucking hate you.



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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Zem wrote:
Horses and potions? I fucking hate you.

"You'll need horses", he said. "No more teleporting in E6", he said.

Oats of Cure Light Wounds. Fuck yeah.



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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:36 pm 
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Did I include Seduce Mount, or was that sea flacon?



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 Post subject: Re: Riding and Horses
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:33 pm 
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Search your feelings, you know it to be you.


Was so hoping to go a year without anyone seeing it.


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